Anti-Racism & Personal Experience

In this episode, Dalton, Margo and Colt discuss racism, how it presents in our healthcare systems and within our communities. They go over some research and reporting the G4 Health team has been working on over the years and how their own personal experiences connect to this work. This episode is the start of a larger conversation around racism and the effect it has on First Nations individuals and communities. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hello and welcome to the G4 Talks Health Podcast. In this episode, Colt, Margot, and I get into a discussion on racism, how it presents in our healthcare system, what it means to be racist, how it might be experienced, and why these conversations matter. We also explore some research and reporting that our team has been working on over the years and reflect on some community engagement sessions that helped inform some of that work. There's some personal stories and some good laughs throughout, but we hope you enjoy this one and learn some along the way.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

So racism. What's that about, yeah?

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Who wants to talk racism? Who wants to start?

SPEAKER_04 0:40

I was thinking maybe a good place to start would be explaining kind of the background of what this report is, some of the work that was done, because this is all prior to me joining the team. Um I've obviously heard a lot about it in conversations and some of the work we're doing now, but uh not to put both of you guys on the spot again, but just to kind of explain a little bit more about how this work started, what were some of the outcomes and kind of where we are now with this with this work and this report and kind of seeing how we want to take it moving forward into the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So we've been a tribal council since 2017. So we're going on nine years now. What we found in a lot of our conversations when we started to meet with the general public, started to meet with elders, uh, health directors, some of the citizens and clients, we started to hear the challenge of of racism. And so it became one of our priority areas. It was really difficult for us to actually find funding to actually support the discussions or to support any actions targeted at eliminating racism. You know, that that in itself is just huge. And so we were actually um met with elders to develop cultural competency. And one of the things that kept coming up in that session, and Dalton, I think you were part of our team at that time, um, we were we wanted to develop a cultural competency framework that would help us um inform our work moving forward in a in a culturally safe way. And what continued to manifest in the conversations was the challenges our people face in the healthcare system regarding racism, so mistreatment, discrimination, whatever it was. And so we kind of paused that work on building cultural competency and invited the elders to share their concerns and kind of did like a round circle of of these common situations that we had. So this is like in what would he say, like 20 2020? Yeah, 2021. Yeah, 2021.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Um, so again, it was post-pandemic. It was um, it wasn't the first time we heard that though, but it was the first time that we really created space to have the conversation. Um, and then because we sit in different areas where we meet with different levels of government, we're able to actually share like, well, what are we doing about racism? What are we doing about, you know, the mistreatment that our people experience? And so what came probably not only as a result to our conversations, but um an overarching problem across Indian country um was addressing anti-indigenous racism funding from the federal government. And so it was really interesting because that was the first time I would say, in my experience in the world of health advocacy, that there was actual targeted funding provided to talk about racism. And so what we did is we created a process to develop a report that identified indicators uh rooted in racism. And so it was part of that air funding. You'll you may often hear it as air funding, to meet with targeted groups to actually talk about this. It was difficult, you know, it it wasn't an easy conversation. Um, and it wasn't an easy conversation to introduce. And so we thought, let's hear from focus groups and let's bring together different groups of people from different, I guess, areas. And so we met with youth, we met with elders, met with the MMIWG population, the LGBTQIA plus uh two-spirited population. We also met with uh the homeless population or the displaced population. We met with um members impacted by substance misuse and trauma, and then also community health professionals. And so we really had it was actually a two-year process. So the report that we have is for one year, but we had follow-up uh with that as well. And each of the sessions, although they were kind of targeted for those different areas, they all kind of went down the same pathway. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Yeah, no, for real. They all kind of came together. You heard similar things from all all the different groups, and I don't think there's anybody who was like uh untouched by racism. I think when we asked uh show of hands in the room who uh including our team, I think everybody was uh affected by racism in in one way or the other. So it's very much still alive today.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah. What we found too is we we did ask a question kind of in the beginning of those those sessions of like, raise your hand if you if you've been impacted by racism. And some wouldn't. And then um and it was fine, you know, it wasn't like you have to raise your hand, everybody has experienced racism. Um, but what we did is we started to um go into some different definitions of what we started to commonly hear when we addressed it with some of our funders or our stakeholders. And um once we kind of went into these definitions, then people started to kind of have that aha moment of like, oh, I didn't know that was a form of racism or discrimination.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Oh, oh, I actually did experience that, which was really yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Yeah, he thought I totally had that too. When you kind of look back at your own experiences and then I think when you go through something that's kind of like that, you try to uh what what do they call it? Gaslighting, racial gaslighting. You try to like um, you know, rationalize that it wasn't that bad or like it's it must be me. And then after a while, when you start to share those experiences, you're like, oh, oh, like it's yeah, oh, okay. This and start to piece it together that this was actually racism. Uh and now, you know, there's that the clarity, I guess. So in a way it was even though the conversations were tough, it was like oddly healing in a way that we were able to share together, which was nice, but right, it did bring up a lot of um a lot of I guess trauma from people. Oh, right talking about this stuff, because it's tough. It's not really an easy conversation to just come in and say like, you know, what uh because then you do have to think back at what your your experience is and kind of uh um process them, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, even even to realize like how desensitized we are because it became like a like a really normal feeling for our people where it's just like, oh, it's not that bad, you know. And then then when you kind of sit around in a circle and realize like, oh, we got rights, you know, we we we have we have human rights. And then you start to realize like, holy crap, that was horrible. Like it and then we started like to um you know carry some of that energy because what we find as a full First Nation team is even though we're facilitating the conversation, we're actually part of the conversation as well. We're actually, we are you, you know, you are us. And in work hours, yeah, we work we're advocates and we're doing the best we can with the information at hand. But as people and individuals, we're still living in this world that is oftentimes cruel and disappointing and you know, not uh rooted in our best interests.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

No, yeah, we have to live with all that and you come back, right? It affects us after uh after five. Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah, because then you see it in all of the it's all connected. So yeah, no, I think it's really important. And it's like for all of us, you know, that are working here.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

And it it felt surreal actually having funding. And and I'm not saying it was like this enormous amount of ongoing sustainable funding where we could identify the issues and make recommendations and implement them. It definitely wasn't that. It was like, here's a little bit of money to talk about it. Yeah, and so you know, we tried to talk with as many um people that we can, but again, you know, it's not, you know, if I've seen a poster and it's like come and share your experiences with racism, I'd be like, ew, no, like why would I want to? What are you gonna do about it if I do, right? That's kind of the challenge.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Yeah, to see that. And I think a lot of people too. I remember we did put out that uh anonymous uh survey at the time there where we had a lot of um apprehension from people just because it is like a tough thing. Like you're gonna carve out your the time out of your day to do this when it's like you're trying to move on, right? And you're not so I could see that like uh I personally heard a lot of people just tell me word of mouth like stories, but they wouldn't go through the process of actually filling out a like paperwork or anything like that because they wouldn't they just wouldn't want to do that and but they feel comfortable telling somebody first like face to face.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Oh for sure.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Yeah. So I I think that really was like a um barrier in the data um collection. But it's still, you know, the oral um, you know, somebody just telling you word of mouth, that's still just as important as like if you just have like a number like to have your experience racism check, you know. That's yeah, it's almost more powerful when you know the people too personally very well. And it's like, oh geez, like this is yeah, it's affecting all of us, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

On that point about the data collection and like how there could be um you know errors within it. I I think understanding what is racist is one of the biggest things. Like, well, did I even experience racism? And kind of going back to what you mentioned, Margot, about those definitions, like racism is not just like blatant statements at somebody. Um, it could be anything from like microaggressions or racial gaslighting, you know, bias that you may not even be aware of. And you know, part of someone who may have experienced uh racism in the healthcare system or outside of that as well is like understanding if something was actually racist or not. And maybe it doesn't hit you in the moment. It could hit you on the drive home, be like, hey, we actually know that wasn't okay, or maybe they meant something different by that. And you know, understanding what was actually racist, you know, that was that's definitely a point where uh data collection could have been skewed because you may not even have realized it until later on, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

That was that was what we found when we were, you know, offered this funding because like we mentioned, we were already talking racism. But for example, say we wanted to do a grant and explore some mental health supports for clients, um, and we used as a as a um result to the racism and discrimination that our clients are are facing, we want to apply for some funding to address and create some new supports for them. And so sometimes the funders would come back and say, Hey, I flagged a few things, take a look. And this is prior to the air funding that had come out. So we we look, they flag the word racism. And so I'm like, okay, like what else do we use? Synonym for racism.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah, there's still that taboo. People don't want to outright it. Some people, it's like a weird word for people to say, even though how are we going? If we can't even talk about it, how are you supposed to solve it? And we can't even that's the first thing is to become aware that it's actually happening. But it does seem that people try to avoid that word.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

And even in like like the I think from the time this funding came out um to the time that we had started our advocacy journey within the tribal council was less than five years. And it was interesting the shift in less than five years. So now we're going on almost 10 years, but in the shift in less than five years, one, you couldn't use the word racism. And then all of a sudden it's like, but here's now some money to address racism. And it's like, what? You know, and for us to always be told no, no, no, or to have a roadblock of, you know, it's never uh for us with us, you know, it's never for us by us. It's always like, here's how you can talk about it. You can, but you can't actually say what you're talking about. Right. And so that five-year shift is really interesting because we were, we were a little like, what? Oh my God, we actually have money for racism when less than five years ago we weren't even allowed to use the word in a in a grant. We weren't even allowed to even reference the UNDRIP or the TRC as supporting pieces of information. Yeah, and you look at that less than five years, but but on a positive note, you know, that's good for us because now we're able to have spaces to comfortably talk about the uncomfortable, right? And before it was very much um no, and now it's like, yeah, and we'll we'll walk along with you. And it's like, oh my God, like I I I don't know how to reconcile, right? Because it's always the truth has always been hidden, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Yeah, it's a new, it's a very new thing.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

It's also a a tricky part too, kind of what you're saying. Like there may be these uh these opportunities for us to like actually improve things in our own communities, but there's these guardrails that are put up, and it's like, all right, well, you can do this, but you know, within our parameters that we're gonna set for you, regardless of what you have identified as a need. And it's always a tricky one to like take those opportunities because if you don't, then you may be doing the community a disservice. But at the same time, you don't want to play that game where we are trying to say, hey, here's the truth, this is what we need funding for, this is what's happening. And it's like, okay, yeah, sure, but here's something else. And it's like it's it's it's a really hard line to draw between like taking those opportunities and doing the most with it, while also acknowledging that you know there's still those guardrails that are really holding us back from what we're actually trying to do, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Oh, for sure. I I even find like using the other um definitions was really helpful to kind of soften it for other people to feel more comfortable to talk about. So when we were getting pushback for the word racism, um, a lot of the pushback was telling us, well, are you sure it's not an unconscious bias? So we're like, well, what's the difference? You know? So so then it it really um forced us, maybe that's not the best way to put it, but really like uh pushed us kind of outside our own comfort levels to look at words beyond that because maybe we were going at it a little too hard and a little too aggressive, right? And so how were we able to kind of see different worlds, right? We're always taught that two-eyed seeing approach, and and and that's what we really had to do in this. And so we actually provided um really general um definitions and and sources of common sources, like them, the dictionary Merriam dictionary is what we used, right? Just to say, like, we're not making these up. These are actual words like that are very publicly available. And so, Colt, you did mention them, but it was racism, microaggression, racial gaslighting, and unconscious bias. And it's so funny because when we were having these conversations, I remember um we're doing the one with the elders. You remember that? And I remember I was getting on an elevator, it was a break time, and I was getting, and I and I never really explored these terms that fully, but I was getting on an elevator and there was like a fellow in front of me, and he looked at me and he looked at me up and down and looked at me, and then stepped completely aside and wouldn't get on the same elevator with me. And I was like, is that is that a microaggression? Then then you started to challenge yourself, right? To be like it it even opened up my eyes to the things I wasn't seeing. I was more looking at like those those very evident examples of racism where you started to see like, oh my god, it's everywhere. And it it it's so subtle sometimes, where you know, maybe that was a coincidence, maybe, but I felt it in the gut.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Yeah, I can feel it. Like uh I noticed I uh growed my hair and it uh you get followed around stores more often. Things like that. Things that I heard from my cousins. I think as soon as I started, I guess, um being more, I guess, outwardly native. Uh I think uh I've definitely connected more with my culture last couple uh couple years, especially after COVID. And I personally have seen uh a shift in how I'm treated in the general public. People do just like stare. Right. Yeah. Especially, you know, just long hair, um being a man. Gotcha. You know, there's these like oh um I guess ideas of how a man should look in this world. So then you get these Yeah, you do get these um just weird feelings that I could definitely see now that when my cousins are telling me that growing up, uh I personally too is kind of like, well, maybe they're just looking into this too much. Maybe this is um, you know, what is it, gas the gaslighting and and maybe this person has had a bad day, but I do see that and it's very much alive even in, you know, here in Alberta.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

Yeah, I couldn't but feel it. Especially like doing the type of work that we do and like being exposed to this type of uh like this type of work in general, you know, you're almost primed for it, right? You're not necessarily looking out for it every time, but you're you're more aware of it now when it happens, right? And that kind of changes your perspective on the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

We we found like with the opportunity to actually do a report, and the report it's from 22, 23, but it is something that we always bring into our advocacy, like to this day, and I hope that we always continue to use that as like a pillar of information. Um, because one of the things that we found is hearing everybody's different perspectives of racism, what what does it mean to everyone? Like, how would you define it? There was something that came together that we all agreed on, and it was you know instinctively that something is wrong, and there's an underlying harmful message being directed at you. So it's that instinctual feeling, you know, that gut feeling. It's like that didn't feel right because it wasn't right. You know, and that was something that regardless of the groups that we shared it with during before and after, it is a very instinctual feeling. You know, we as First Nation people were very energy sensitive, you know, we're very um spiritually inclined with the environment around us. And and I think that that feeling of it's just that gut feeling, you know, like, oh man, like that did not feel right. And so it was really, it was actually everybody had agreed to that, and so we put that in there. Um but they also we also asked people describe racism using one word. And and the words that had had come up were, you know, they were very true. And you know, and I think sometimes maybe if you haven't experienced racism, you may not know how it feels. So we're able to bring feeling kind of into our our um advocacy. And so things that that people said was it's humiliating, it's sad, it's hurtful, it's traumatizing, it's gross. You know, like there was there was a lot of that. Yeah, it's gross. And not gross in a cool way. Gross in a bad way. I'm learning that there's like different ways to use words.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah. I'm giving boomer right now, but no, but yeah, it is like I'm looking at the words right now.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Yeah, hurtful, negative, um the superiority. Yeah, I do feel like sometimes too in the health uh systems there's this idea that you know the the kind of um the colonial western way is the superior way of understanding things and that some of our traditional like medicines and stuff are kind of looked down upon. Um so yeah, that's like an example of uh racism right out the gate systematically is that a lot of our things are not as um uh a lot of our ways are not as prioritized or funded or um supported in the areas in the Western world. And they're I know they just don't see it as on the same uh I guess hierarchy, if you will. Yeah. But yeah, it becomes more um blatant, I think, when I start seeing these about systematically what they kind of do to our you know way of uh health and how we view health.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

Yeah. I'm I'm looking at this list now, and like the one that's jumping out to me the most is stereotyping. It kind of touches on what you're uh bringing up earlier, Dalton. Like having that stereotypical image, uh, whether that's in like Western culture with like you know, men having shorter hair and you know a lot of First Nations folks, you know, that they will they will grow out their hair. That's part of our culture, right? Um also going through the report, there was something I latched onto about having um or being ethnically ambiguous, basically, or not being able to properly identify somebody uh by visuals alone, and that's something like I've personally been impacted by. You know, I've I've been called different uh different names by uh different people, whether they assumed I was a part of a different culture or from a different place in the world. I've been told myself that I'm ethnically ambiguous, and it's it's challenging sometimes because you're like, no, like I am this person, and I think you even one layer deeper from there, you you like myself. Sometimes there's that feeling of like being too native for the non natives and then being too white for the natives themselves and being in this weird gray zone where you maybe don't have much of a tie to a particular identity, but you you know who you are and you know where you where you want to be. Um But maybe those stereotypes don't actually apply to you. Or like obviously, you know, one no one wants to be a stereotype, but there aren't those typical qualities that someone could turn to. And it it definitely leaves you feeling a little out of place, right? And feeling feeling gross, you know, this sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

That that's so true, though. And I think when we went through this process, like hearing stories like that, they were so relatable. Like, you know, we we kind of buffer them by saying, well, maybe it's only me, but it's like it's not only you. Like, you know, they're very relatable. I like I'll give it a personal example too, is my my dad, he's he was fair, right? When he was born, he was more fair. And it was, he was uh residential school student. And um when they had opened like the general schools up to like the native kids, he went to school across the tracks. And so he, what you shared, Colt, my dad actually shared that with me too. He said, I feel like I was too white around my you know native relatives, and I was on the other side of the tracks, they knew I was a native, so they're gonna treat me like a native. And he's like, and so I couldn't win either way. And it's so funny because he he always tells this story, and he said, So I always thought, when I have kids, I hope my kids are um like basically native facing, you know, that that we you know that we don't inherit his light skin and his light eyes, you know. And then it's like, and he's like a hundred percent blackfoot. And it's interesting because you know, me and my brother, or me and my late brother, we were uh born brown, you know, like we're very like you walk in the room, you pretty much know what we are, right? Um but even that to to know how long this has been going on. You know, this has been going on now in our our generation to know like that's how our parents felt. You know, our parents felt kind of caught in both worlds, like I'm I'm not enough of this and I'm not enough of that. So where do I fit in? And then wishing that, you know, like we shouldn't even have to wish our kids a certain color, right? We they we should be able to be born into a world where color of your skin doesn't matter, but our cultures and our identities can still shine through and and be proud of of who we are, regardless of where we come from, right?

unknown 24:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Yeah, I had like the same thing too. I felt like at a younger age it could kind of fit in everywhere. So I had like native friends and like non-native friends. So I think this is where racism's learned, is because the older you got, I would say, like after puberty, it totally got like segregated in my high school. So to the point where it's like, well, now all the friends I used to have now have gravitated to their own kind of racial groups, and then now it's like it was hard to fit in, like anywhere. Because you know, this is what you're saying. Like sometimes you know, I I have like fairer skin, so it was like sometimes harder to be with the native crowd, and then you go to the, you know, the white friends, and then they're like, this guy's the native guy. So it's hard to uh like connect on some things. You know, because you're like your whole um even the idea of like getting bust into school and uh the how buses in the reserve works is completely different. They didn't even sometimes I would say I'm from the Reds and they would be like the Glenmore reservoir. Maybe like Yeah, like born in the water. Yeah. Merman. Merman. Water people. Yeah, I came up with one day I just stepped out of the the water. No, but yeah. And then so it was I could relate to that. And I've seen people like whisper under their breath and like point in me, and then you could see them like naming different races, and like and then they see them like shaking, and then they're like, maybe, and then like, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Oh wow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

And you could see them trying to like suss it out.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Well, that that's not stereotype. It's like there's one image that we're supposed to fit, right? And like people think that we're, you know, that pan-indigenous approach is that we're all the same and we all look the same. But if you study our people or if you know and become familiar, we know where each other's from. You know, there's different characteristics of people who come from different nations or different um like First Nation identities. Like I know, like I can see a Blackfoot when I see a Blackfoot, you know, like you know that, like, and you know, there is that. And I think that's where maybe the general community doesn't really understand. Like, we've been here for a long time, you know. We've been here for a long time, and in, you know, just over a century, we've really fit into this common, I don't know, environment, you know, and and we're still like testing our identity, we're still trying to make sense of who we are. But I think that like there's still like this mystical side of it of like, you look different, but you don't look like the average Indian that I'm used to seeing. You know what I mean? And that becomes a real challenge. And and that was a question that we had asked, and um was when did you first learn about your race? And that was a real indicator for us to know when did you first experience a racism incident? Because as a child, you don't go through life saying, okay, I'm gonna step out these doors, and I'm gonna be an Indian today, right? Like, and and I use Indian in a, you know, and and that's like that's how we were referring to ourselves back then. Um and you walk into that space, but a lot of the time it's a negative experience that makes a child feel different because of their race. And so so we did ask that question, and and what we found is it was more common from like after age four. So once people started school, once kind of people came out of that supportive home network, that's when they started to realize, oh wait, am I different? But we're not different, right? Right. But we're different in a sense that you know we're being received for the first time outside of our our inner circle.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Aaron Ross Powell I think that's where the educational component comes in on both sides, like not only uh from non-Indigenous folks looking at our communities, but also within our own communities and saying, like, hey, you know, if you're gonna go to school outside of the reserve, you may experience these things, be prepared for it, and like preparing children as they move into the city. Myself, for example, I went to school on the nation until I was in grade three. And then after that, I moved into uh Calgary, where I started school from grade four onward all the way through high school. And I remember the first year it was a shock. I'm like, wow, there's like all sorts of people here, and like multiculturalism alive. You know, I didn't realize that um that was going on at the same time when I was just at school on the reserve, right? Kind of going back to the same thing where I I stuck close to my native friends, the people I knew there, or people I knew that were native. But you know, then you kind of open the doors, and then sometimes you open that door too much, and then that's when the racism maybe comes about. But going back to the education point, you know, I don't think anyone's born racist, right? And it's these these views that develop over time through your upbringing and the experiences you have.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah. We we seen like a lot of um a lot of that, like with little little kids joining sports teams, you know, like where these are safe spaces, but all of a sudden, you know, your your last name is questioned, and it's like, that's just my last name. Right. Like, I I don't know what what do you want me to make it up? And and that's where we found like one of my children experienced racism for the f like one of their first experiences of racism was on their hockey team uh making fun of their last name. You know, and you know, dodging horse in our community, that's a nice name. You know, it sounds good. We're there's nothing alarming about it, but they experience it that way. And then my younger child, same thing. Um a teammate was like, Dodging horse, what kind of last name is that? You know, and I'm like, and and I'm like, you know, these are teachable moments. How do we use these as teachable moments? So, you know, being in the dressing room, I'm like, you know what? It's a cool last name. And the little guy was like sitting there and he's like, that is a cool last name, you know, like and it's like reminding, like when we have those moments, like this innocent child is hearing something for the first time as well, you know, on both sides, right? Like, you know, there are there are different things that um exist in different parts of the world, right? And some of those are last names, and unfortunately, they can be taken the wrong way when it's like they're just last names, right? It's my government name. It is, yeah, my government name for real.

SPEAKER_04 30:20

I've definitely seen like the inverse of that as well. Like myself, I have a fairly First Nation sounding last name, Crow Child. Um, but I have some friends who have um a name that doesn't sound like it is First Nation, and they've shared their experiences with me saying, like, uh, oh, your name is, you know, I'm gonna use Smith for an example, and uh, oh, your name is Smith. That's not a First Nations last name. Are you really native? And it goes back the other way as well, right? It's complicated. You can't win.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

It's funny because and also thing is like having like we're talking about this at work, uh like in the in the world of health, but we also look at it from our perspective of health is everything. You know, health is from the moment that we're born to the moment that we're laid to rest. Um and so it is a whole life experience, and how do we walk with that life experience in a good way? Um, and that's the thing is these names will be with us forever, and how do we empower the up-and-coming generation to wear them proudly? You know, the names actually come with amazing stories the same way they do in other in other uh races, right? Like their names came from somewhere, and um, it's just that we're a little closer to our our histories right now. Yeah but I think if everybody was to kind of explore, they would realize that even the common names they came from somewhere, you know, and it's probably a really beautiful story.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Yep. Actually, on that I had a conversation with uh one of my previous coworkers, uh, he's from Nigeria, and I was he was asking about my experiences in Canada and about racism directly, and we were having a very frank conversation, and he was asking me about different uh different family names and different nations, and kind of what you said earlier about like you know a blackfoot when you see one, and I was like, no, like I know, like, oh okay, that's someone who's from uh from the Ayuska communities, oh that's someone who's from Satana, and you can just pick it out. And he was saying the same thing is true in his his culture, where he could recognize the last name, be like, oh, okay, they're they're part of this ethnic group, or they're part of this, uh they're from this area. Uh I think that's definitely true. Like in different cultures, there's that commonality where you have that understanding amongst each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

That's what I find when we do a lot of our work around cultural competency and cultural safety. Like we come in as colleagues and we come in as like, you know, a technical team kind of doing this work. And then I find how we've structured a lot of our interactions with stakeholders is we took a really human-centered approach. And I find like maybe well in not even well into that moment, like like at the earlier stages of that, people kind of take off that hat and they realize, wow, like I relate to our conversations, and they start to bring their own culture and their own identity into the space. And and that's really important because when we're talking about this, we're not saying First Nations are the only ethnic group that have ever experienced racism who or discrimination or microaggressions. We know that it's everywhere, you know, it's everywhere, but we're also making a safe space for people to bring their culture and identity and relate to what we're saying, because then we create a shift, we create a mind shift, we create a connection, we create an understanding across race, across jurisdiction, across whatever it may be. And I think that's the real challenge is um it's not a siloed situation. It's it's very everyone, if we were to go into even more definitions of discrimination, there's gonna be so many hands raised regardless of color of skin.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

One thing I thought about, um we had an engagement recently uh around end of life and palliative care at the uh Arthur Child Cancer Center here in Calgary. And I remember there was a a couple individuals that brought up charting as part of uh sort of a a remedy to some of these issues that we had addressed. And um I think that's definitely something that is related to racism because there was a couple comments about how do we make sure this the comments we're putting in individuals' charts throughout the health system are accurate, but you know, are trauma-informed, are not assuming things, are actually uh gonna be helpful for people down the road, right? I I know that you guys met with uh different groups and one particularly was uh individuals who experienced substance abuse or um mistreatment, I think was the the the wording there. Um how do we make things safe when referring to individuals such as this, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah, and that that was interesting because we actually even pulled data, like emergency department data, recognizing that we see a large percentage of our population using emergency department um more like a primary care because we have very limited resources in some of our communities, or the wait time is too long, and so you know that's an easier approach. Um, but we were able to see some of the um the data around substance use and some of the age that substance use was was targeting. Um we also looked at things around anxiety and stress. And and why I bring those up is because people think that like what's the correlation between anxiety and stress and substance use and racism. Imagine being treated like crap your whole life. It's all connected. It's gonna it's gonna start to affect you, right? And and so that's kind of where we did the connection is like, you know, you see like what are the life experiences of these people? You look at our um our population who went to residential school. That was full-on racism. You know, if you look at like any types of documentation from that time, you know, strip the Indian out of the child, or you know, however it was referenced, that's straight racism, you know. Um so they will live and act like white people, but they're still going to be an Indian or a savage, or you know, like like these are actual like things that are documented in history. And so you look at that over time, that's gonna impact somebody's mental health, their stress, their anxiety. That's gonna lead people down, you know, a very substance abusive um pathway. And so we actually use that because it was to show people that there are correlations between the data that you may have and also the experience of racism. And even like the simple questions we had, like in our um process of of doing this, we actually met with um a target group of a hundred people. And so for us that was, you know, that's a really good sample to get kind of a good feel. It's a hundred people is a hundred percent, right? And so of a hundred people, one hundred percent of them experienced racism. And ninety percent of them experienced racism in the healthcare field. That really aligned with what we were already hearing. So for us to now go back to um colonial structures that are like, I want to see the data, I want to see the research. Well, now we have that. 90% out of our sample group experience racism in the healthcare system, or 100% of the people um felt that they experienced differential treatment because they were First Nation. Yeah, and so we used differential treatment in place of using the word, have you ever felt like a token Indian? And so that was where you know our partners on this project said, let's use a more formal language. So when we present this to stakeholders, you know, it's it's not like, and we asked everyone, did you ever feel like a token Indian? But a hundred percent of our sample population have felt like a token Indian once in their life.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

I did want to reiterate something you touched on there with 90% of the uh the group experiencing racism in the healthcare system. I just want to reiterate that it's not, you know, blatant racism in terms of like a doctor, you know, saying something directly to you. It could be something at the start of your your journey at the health facility, whatever it may be, where you have an interaction with uh the person at the door or you know, the nurse that's doing the screening. You know, there's multiple layers where that can come in and it's not just uh you know some one person saying one thing to you, and it could be multiple things stacked on top of each other, right? Especially if you've had a uh starting with a bad experience at the front desk and you're already kind of off because of that, you know, that can only compound things as you move up and you start to see the doctor and that sort of thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:27

And that's not saying that the blatant stuff doesn't also exist, correct? Because I think a lot of pushback people you hear say that like, you know, residential schools were like get over it, you hear it's like it was over a long time, you know, or but then you actually do hear sometimes we do hear very blatant racism stories, and you have to sit with that and be like, oh wait, that there's no you know, microaggression there that was like a major aggression that was very much real. So there are some of those where we also can't diminish how important that is to show that, like um, you know, it wasn't just something that like the interjection intergenerational trauma, it isn't something that just happened to like the generation before us, it's still happening today.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yeah, and and even this, like there's like this is our like really gentle approach to to uh research around racism, but there's other research that exists out there. And we've actually been able to be part of some of those projects, to be able to use some of um some of the literature from these projects. We're also creating our own research and that is looking at you know the health system in a different perspective and in alignment with Treaty Right to Health. Like there's there's bigger things that we're doing. Um but even like some of the research that exists, like to invite those into the space, like we say this is the start of the conversation, and this is our opportunity to kind of have more of a free conversation around um the racism and discrimination that our people face. But you know, to bring in other people who've um created research around this would be amazing because there's um U of C research around physician preference, and it was very telling that there is a preference to not work with First Nations people. And there's also other research that the F and IGC had partnered with, I believe, U of A on emergency department um quality care for indigenous people. And and that one has so many alarming quotes that people have actually said in the medical system of, oh, here's another one from the reserve, what are they gonna bring this time? Or, you know, and and even in some of the research I've seen like the question being asked, like about what is your preference? Do you prefer white or First Nation patients? And you know, it's very alarming to be asked that. But some will say, Well, actually, I've been discriminated against by an indigenous person. And and so you start to see that it's it's a bigger systemic issue. Um, when we did ex actually explore that with some of our elders, though, is one one thing always stands out for me, and it was an elder he had shared with us, you know, when I first started going into the healthcare system, I was calm. And I was, you know, I was like kind and I was patient. But over and over I got mistreated in that same system. I started to become loud and aggressive. And so that was really telling. So when I read some of the research, it's like, well, yeah, I know our people are reacting that way. And I've seen it firsthand, you know, as a patient to sit there and and see some of our people reacting aggressively for wait times, reacting aggressively for, you know, that they can't hear or understand people. But why are they acting that way? They're acting that way because they've been mistreated over and over and over again, where the only option is just to act that way. You know, like and you look at like if I an upset child, for example, you know, you can they are only gonna be calm for so long where they're gonna have a breaking point. That's how we all are as humans. We're gonna have a breaking point and the boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 42:07

You know, because the these stereotypes, because you hear stereotypes like the angry native, right? And it's like, well, where does that come from? Instead of instead of stereotyping and saying like here's a blanket explanation or spirit prejudice, like there maybe this is actually rooted in like maybe they're angry for a good reason. What is the reason? Isn't that you you could start tearing down these stereotypes even with substance abuse? It's like, well, why are we abusing these substances? Maybe we're in the system that it isn't like for us to succeed. Like they start to show with some of these the the general um systematic, oh, it's not really set up with us and for us. Right. So I think that's really important to point out is that these um a lot of these stereotypes like when you look into them more, they actually do show these like deeper truths that could that could be addressed in like just a better way.

SPEAKER_04 43:01

I can't help but think that it just always goes back to education, right? Like you have those stereotypes, you have those those images out there, and you know, if you if you really care enough, you would take a second, peel back that first layer and realize, okay, it's not uh, you know, for example, like your your example of uh substance abuse, you know, it's not just uh First Nations people and substances, you know, there's there's a relationship there uh that is developed over generations for particular reasons. Yes. Um and there's there's trauma there, and there's history that isn't understood. And a lot of those the that history isn't shared in a in a way where people are maybe listened to it or in a way that is properly communicated. So there's that education component to like really dive into it, you know, really relying on people to uh have that care out of the goodness of their heart to really go at it. And maybe they don't even know that their belief maybe is racist, but it just peeling back that first layer to understand what's actually happening below that, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Yeah, and they say it's like pass down rate, and what I used to hear is sometimes if somebody was being racist. That it was maybe their parents were racist and they passed that on to their children. So the education piece is important because it's how you like are raised and what you believe. Because yeah, the Canadian system doesn't really do a great job in covering all of our perspectives.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

No. No. And even like our histories, like I find for like, you know, newcomers coming into the country, like I think they're only taught up to a certain point in our history. So people aren't taught that. And and that's the thing is like how do we educate and how do we um challenge, you know, bills and policies that are against education, you know, against educating uh cultural competency um by doing things like this, right? Like this is like nobody's mandated to listen to this, right? But I hope if somebody listens to it, it'll be like, oh wow, that was actually a really informative conversation. You know, we we weren't saying so-and-so said this and this government did that. It's basically like this is a humanity concern. And and those those racial slurs that exist, like they're so bad. Like we heard it in our in our research, we hear it in our conversations, we see it in other people's research, you know, drunken Indian, savage, we've heard like pill popper, we've heard, you know, just even even the opposite of that, like kind statements that are really rooted in hate. Like, you know, we've we've seen things like, oh, you're pretty for a native girl. You know, we we we some of our some of our participants had shared that with us. Um oh, I didn't know natives still grow their hair long, you know. And it's like we all have long hair, you know, the whole world, right? Like we all have the ability to grow our hair, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

So going back two seconds to what you said about the different generations, too. Like, in no way am I saying it's all good now, but you in the current education system, at least in Alberta, you have targeted uh times where they do touch on topics like residential schools, and there's initiatives like the Orange Shirt Day and things like that, where you know it's more common to be part of the conversation now. Um but you know, even speaking to my parents, I remember them sharing that a lot of their friends uh that these they still keep keep in contact with, they didn't even know residential schools happened until a couple years ago or you know within the past decade. So there's that difference in generational teaching as well and what's available at the education level for younger kids now, and you know, it's it's good that it is being talked about, but is there still that huge gap between the different generations?

SPEAKER_03 46:30

No, I think the younger generation started our generation kind of exposed to a lot more, especially. I know we went to the same school. I know exactly what you mean. Like when we were younger, there was or at least it feels like there was more of an education piece, and it's good that there seems to be a very loud anti-racism group, I guess. Like so there are some like positives that I see, you know, that I do look at history and it's like I am grateful that I was born now and not in like the 30s or the twenties at the height. Not saying, you know, that it's it's all that many when it is, you know, there's still work going on and people are passionate about uh addressing this stuff because like what you said, it affects everybody.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

And I and I think that's the thing is like we are we have a privilege now that probably our parents never had and our definitely our grandparents never had, and and the privilege to actually be at these tables, the privilege to actually say, like, hey, let's publicly talk about it, and not in a harmful way. We're not trying to be, you know, very vindictive in this. We're trying to be able to share that it's safe to talk about now. Um, and that's a privilege that we have because even being able to sit between governments or being able to sit with um other organizations to say, like, do you want to talk about this with us? And do you want to find ways that we can creatively create pathways of change? You know, maybe we won't see change in our lifetime, but hopefully we kind of set a plan in motion where, you know, my grandchildren, my great grandch great great grandchildren may not experience the same things that we've experienced because man, it's crazy. Like when I remember the story that I shared in in the sessions, because then we started taking part in it. We're like, this is very therapeutic. Do you mind if I share and so and I remember I was the opposite of Colt where I started school in the city. So I lived in Northeast Calgary, very multicultural. You know, I went to school with everybody, and I thought that was normal because I was just, you know, a kid, right? And I remember um there was a there was like once a month you get picked as one of the top students to go for lunch at McDonald's. Um the McDonald's train. And so it was like a train in the old McDonald's, and I was so happy and I was I got picked, and I and I had sat down, I was going to sit on the train, and the one girl looked at me and said, You can't sit with us. And I was like, Oh, I think I was grade two. So I was pretty young, younger than my youngest. And I was like, How come I can't sit with you? And she told me, Because you're an Indian. And I was like, What? I was like, uh, so then I go to the teacher and I'm like, um, the girl says I can't sit with her because I'm an Indian. And the teacher's like, oh, sit with me. There's two things wrong there. One, you know, the girl, you know, the poor thing, you know, raised in such a hateful perspective, or in an uneducated perspective of a way like it's okay. We're all we all could all sit together. It's fine. Um, and two, the teacher did nothing. Just the teacher, yeah. The teacher's like, oh, well, sit with me. And I remember that was the first time I went home and I was like, Mom, what's an Indian? And and then she's like, What? You know, because I was just, you know, I was Margot from Sixaga, right? I knew that, but I didn't know I was Margot the Indian, right? And then when now looking back at it, you know, years have passed, I've healed, I've grown. Um I think like that girl came from a ethnic uh group as well. And I think like, oh my god, so it's not a white versus Indian situation, it's a everybody situation. And you know, when you look back, it's not just one race is racist to one race, right?

SPEAKER_03 50:16

Yeah. And that's even too the what is it, lateral violence. Sometimes, you know, we're even fighting each other. I've seen things where it's almost like natives are like um getting on each other for like not doing it the Western way. We've internalized some of those things that we picked up. Some but if that's not our way. Hey, the traditional way we did not have any of that stuff, you know. I'm just looking at the uh elder, um, what do we hit would hit all of the kind of guiding principles that we had gathered from our elder engagement? And like none, there isn't lateral violence isn't on here, you know. There's nothing here that uh says that you should be putting down you know, putting down each other.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Guiding principle, lateral violence.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

Yeah, I don't see that. No, it's it's actually the opposite. So in the process of like re uh reconciliation or in the process of us learning our traditional ways back again, that is hopefully going to stop that, you know, putting each other down too. Because that's not helping.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

And that and that's what they had told us. So we we developed a culture as part of our response to racism, we said, well, let's develop a cultural competency framework. So we actually eventually did develop one with them. It you know, it took a few steps ahead to say, like, there's a bigger issue than what you're trying to get to. And so we addressed that and put some things in motion. And then and then we actually said, But can you still develop a cultural competency framework with us? And so they did. And one of the things that really sits with me um through that process is at the center of that circle of these um, I guess like these traits that we're s we should be bringing in and values is love and laughter. And and that was something that they said, you know, it was is it love and laughter?

SPEAKER_03 52:01

Yeah, yeah, prayer, love, faith, and humor.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Yeah, yeah, and that was the thing. And and and they talked about love as being such a key component to the work we do. And so, you know, we think about lateral violence, the opposite to that is lateral kindness, right? Which is rooted in love, right? And so and then also knowing that they were really um really good to us in a way to say, like, your conversations are gonna be hard, but you gotta bring some light into it. And so through that, they reminded us to laugh, you know, they reminded us to be gentle with ourselves, that we are merely vessels of information, you know, we're merely messengers through this process. And um and so this was created years ago, and then fast forward to just a few months ago, one of our um elders who wasn't part of the original process had told us when you guys are doing your work, you remember to put love into it. And we were like, oh my god, that's at the center of our cultural competencies, and you know, those those moments are real full circle moments. And I think that's where where the elders have really set us up in a good way to know that we can be vulnerable, that it is safe to be able to fall to these kind of conversations, but to not rot in these conversations, you know, not to like just do to keep moving.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

Exactly. Yep. I can't help but think or can't help but go back to like the center of the uh cultural competency framework here with the love and I think of RuPaul, you know, like there's the love aspect as well with self-love, self-care, right? And making sure that you have that space to reflect on uh an experience that you may have had, right? And it's like how are you supposed to love somebody else if you're not gonna love yourself, right? And being able to actually check in on yourself after an experience to say, hey, was that are you okay? What's going on? And being able to stay grounded within all of that as well.

SPEAKER_03 53:57

Oh, for real. So yeah, the debriefs. Oh, exactly. Stuff to be like the quiet drives home.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Well, it was funny because we ended those sessions with um what would a racism free world look like? And and that was really like, you know, people started to kind of dream, right? And you kind of like have like a moment. And and for me, like those are really exciting to hear, and those are really good indicators for us to use like in positions like ourselves to say, like, well, as a measuring tool, you know, how do we use what a racism free world would feel like in measuring some of the actions that we can create? And it was interesting because like they said authenticity, they said respect, pride, um cultural infusion, uh, hope, genuine, informed care. So some looked at it from a place of like access, some looked at it from a place of identity, some looked at it as as just like a feeling in itself. And these are just real common. Like I'm sure if we asked anybody, would you want to feel this way? I don't think that was like, no, I'm good. I don't want to I don't want courage. Rather be racist. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

I don't think anyone would would pick that the other. Exactly. Like these are that's these are things that are good for everybody, like they're net goods that could help the system yeah, improve. 100%. Exactly. And yeah, I really enjoyed those those engagements. And uh yeah, no, I I also just was like, um sometimes you hear these um stereotypes that oh we get these handouts, right? Or we get these uh and that that fuels the um stereotyping and the racism. It's because people think that we're we get treated better and treated differently, you know, and then the people become resentful towards us. And I think that's something to address is that it's not as simple as that. You know, it's actually far more complex than that. Now that I've been in G4 Health, I've understood when you start talking and um seeing what is it, the spaghetti? What it's called is it's a health spaghetti. And anyone working in health can probably confirm that it's way more complicated than what the narrative is against us um claims, right? It's far more complex than just um a handout.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

I've always found that that uh that assumption funny. Like I've had that as well where someone would be like, Hey, do you get money from the government? You know, can you tell me what my dreams mean? But the the money from the government one is is always a funny one to me. Because I'm like, Well, I wish, man. Like, what how much money am I getting? What are you talking about, right? Or we don't pay taxes.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

Yeah, we're looking for another handout. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

Right. And it's not coming from a place of listening or um understanding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

I and I think that's a space that we're trying to create, is ask us your silly questions. You know, ask us your questions that you've just that just burn inside of you to know about First Nation people, you know, and it may feel silly, but at least you're asking us. And at least we have the opportunity to answer it where it's not like, you know, do you get government monies? Well, what kind of government monies? Do you not get government monies, right? Like you look at like the the government provides all Canadian citizens some kind of money eventually, right? At some point, right? Um, we pay taxes, believe it or not. Like, you know, not all of us are given a house and land when we're born, right? Like there's so many assumptions out there about our people that are just so archaic, and it's like, where did you learn that? Because I need to know your source. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:32

I think there's also a point of that by holding space to understand the differences between different nations and individuals. Like even in Treaty 7, you know, there's so many different nations, different families and beliefs, and you know, really breaking down that pan-indigenous view is I think is really key because what may be true in northern Alberta and the way of life up there is completely different, even maybe 50 kilometers south from there. Yes. And it really is dependent on the particular families and uh nations themselves.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

Yeah, he know there are those differences to be like I think a lot of people uh you know, nat Native American, I hear that, and like they don't really um like the pan indigenous wording. Really, they a lot of people just don't understand um the words are how to refer to us. Uh I've said just you know, dear nation, you know, Satina. But then it also then it's more complex, but still um getting away from that people just think we're just all one big tribe. Right. You know, playing one chief. Yeah. Imagine, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, imagine. Would that be good or bad? I don't know. Yeah, that would be another kind of weird. Oh, for sure. But yeah, no, the uh even from the states, right? The the way it's set up down there is different from can Canadian, you know, in treaty, even beast even provincial. We're all different, you know. I mean and that's good. The differences are good.

SPEAKER_04 58:56

I'm thinking more like positive outcomes or like more actionable items. Uh actually in preparation to sit down and talk today, I was talking to my partner and I was like, well, if you were listening to this conversation, like what would you want to know? What would you want to have as like a takeaway from this? And uh the response is like, well, I'd want to know like what I didn't know, and like how could I be more aware, basically? And again, it kind of goes back to the education component, right? But you know, it kind of to ask both of you like what do you think are some actionable items, not like obviously don't be racist, but uh how do you how do you be more aware? Like how do you feel more comfortable asking questions when you're unsure?

SPEAKER_01 59:32

I think um curiosity, like and I I think that's I always say we're a curio a curious bunch, our team here. Um and even ourselves navigating the health system, it it took curiosity and courage. And so I think if I was maybe on the on the receiving end of this, knowing that curiosity is not a bad thing, it's when your curiosity is then tampered by a negative, kind of hateful approach, right? So I think being curious, but also reaching out to organizations like ours where we're in an organization to advocate for, you know, a distinct group of people, um, where you may get a different understanding if you just kind of went into like a native craft store, right? Like or or like or like a yeah, like there's there's different places, so curiosity is really key.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

Yeah, and then be having an open mind when somebody is answering those questions, not trying to fit it in to a uh an idea that they had before, you know, because I've seen that, you know, being open, asking questions and then being open to change your mind and about what you think the negative stereotypes. Because then, you know, if somebody comes in and is and is speaking but they already have this preconceived notion of how we are, to not try to fit us into this box. Because again, we're not like a box, we're not like one. We are all still, you know, people with our differences and like what you said about the token, uh tokenism is right, we can't have it where one person speaks for everybody. Like it's the reality is we all have our differences and we're just as complex as you know, anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

I think that the goal really is that this is like it's a long intro to a long conversation, right? And but I think this is the start of something that we can talk about more, you know, like know that we reference some research, we can connect with these individuals to be part of our conversation. If anyone in the community wants to be part of this conversation, we don't want to kind of be putting ourselves in like a trauma bonding circle, you know. We want to make sure that we're we're informing rather than, you know, just like putting it all out there. Exactly. Um but it but it is it is a form of trauma bonding, right? It is like it is definitely experienced by many people, but this is an intro to something that I hope that we could continue to bring into our spaces. It is a difficult topic to partner on, um, but I think you you will start to see things that we are actually finding brave partners to walk down this path with us.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

See us gus, ishnish. Thank you for listening to this episode of G4 Talks Health. For more information on G4 Health and past episodes, visit our website, www.g4health.org slash podcasts. Follow us on Instagram at g4 underscore health, our Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn at g4health. Send us a message, call, or stop by and let us know what you want to hear in the world of First Nations Health. Naniasani.